Epiphany

晓梦：“这要算爱面子而不要脸吧？”

看看你自己写的东西(42楼)：

“钱写的‘God has given thou one face, but you make yourself another’没有语法错误。”

你的意思非常明确：

(1) “God has given thou one face”是钱钟书写的

(2) “God has given thou one face”没有语法错误

像钱大师钟书一样，你这个大学者当然不可能有错，因为你总是伟大、光荣、正确。既然“God has given thou one face”是钱钟书写的，又没有语法错误，为什么不可引用？看来你不仅是“不要脸”(钱钟书的话)，更是一个“弱智”(方舟子的话)。

test

网上有这么句话你应该熟悉：有图有真相。你看68楼的片片已经显示THEE，你还抱住THOU不放，这要算爱面子而不要脸吧？

当然这只是某种程度的不要脸，好比那个柏杨笔下的女议员，还在千方百计吸引别人眼球的阶段 ...
晓梦 发表于 2013-6-28 21:41

晓梦君，允许俺批评你一句，有事说事，有理说理。肆意将对手“妖魔化”的手段，明显降低了自己的人品。这不是一种论坛交流和对话的正常玩法。你自己处在“幻觉”状态中交战，旁观者却无动于衷。

test

至于，EP用“文化珠峰”这类带帽的夸张手法，戏谑对手，纯粹游戏心理作祟，也算偏题。

雨季

77楼、89楼、90楼、98楼的英文出自同一个人。

kemingqian

世间的学问，不是靠查字典就能做成的。中文未婚妻一词的含义，是否一定指有过订婚仪式后的男女，值得商榷。当某人介绍一位女性时说她是我的未婚妻时，并不一定要有过正规的订婚，这个事情，问问老一辈的人就知道了。

kemingqian

Gustave Courbet, Ophelie, la fiancee de la mort, 1842.

居斯塔夫·库尔贝 奥菲莉亚, 死之未婚妻

kemingqian

奥哈关系究竟如何，答案在于以怎样解读奥菲莉亚失常后吟唱的下面这段诗歌。这段歌词，黑体是原文，蓝体为近文。仔细对比一下红体字，以God代替 Cock，可以看出近代版本颇有洁版的味道。许多学者文人根据这段歌词，判断奥哈已经互相以身心相许了。

Tomorrow is Saint Valentine's day,                          Tomorrow is Saint Valentine's day
All in the morning betime,                                       All in the morning bedtime,
And I a maid at your window,                                  And I a maid at your window,
To be your Valentine.                                             To be your Valentine.
Then up he rose and donn'd his clo'es                     Then up he rose and put on his clothes,
And dupp'd the chamber door,                                And opened the chamber door,
Let in the maid, that out a maid                               Let in the maid that rejected a maid and　
Never departed more.                                             Never left again.

By Gis and by Saint Charity,                                    By God and by Saint Charity,
Alack, and fie for shame!                                         Pity, and for shame, for shame!
Young men will do't if they come to't                        Young men will do it if they come to it,
By Cock, they are to blame.                                     By God, they are to blame.
Quoth she, 'Before you tumbled me,                         Said she, “before you slept with me,
You promis'd me to wed.                                         You promised to marry me.
'So would I 'a' done, by yonder sun,                         So I would have done, by yonder sun,
An thou hadst not come to my bed.                         If you had not come to my bed.

kemingqian

这段歌词朱生豪的翻译如下

情人佳节就在明天，
　我要一早起身，
梳洗齐整到你窗前，
　来做你的恋人。
他下了床披了衣裳，
　他开开了房门；
她进去时是个女郎，
　出来变了妇人。

凭着神圣慈悲名字，
　这种事太丢脸！
少年男子不知羞耻，
　一味无赖纠缠。
她说你曾答应娶我，
　然后再同枕席。
——本来确是想这样作，
无奈你等不及。

kemingqian

当奥菲莉亚吟唱完毕准备下场时，她还说了这样一段话：Come, my coach! Good night, ladies; good night, sweet ladies; good night, good night. （来，我的马车！晚安，太太们；晚安，可爱的小姐们；晚安，晚安！）。这个只在幻想中存在的马车，也有学者文人解释为是奥菲莉亚在幻想与哈姆雷特结婚乘坐马车的场景。

kemingqian

上个世纪中国人语境中的未婚妻，是否只以订婚为标准呢？希望Epiphany能想一想。

kemingqian

另外，还烦请回答一下我55楼的问题。读了杨绛的【吴宓先生与钱锺书】一文后，你是否还坚持杨绛写这篇文章是“因为钱钟书自出心裁，创造了“super－annuated coquette”，用来赞美杨绛，使杨绛得意非凡”这个观点。

kemingqian

最后还有一个请求，Epiphany能否公开一下自己的真实姓名。学术争论，真名实姓最好；想证明自己的水平高，英语出色，也不要躲在ID后面放冷枪，不公平；要是想说某某某人品有问题，那就更应该堂堂正正的报出大名。希望你同意。

李苗

以亦仙亦佛之才，處半人半鬼之世。

治不古不今之學，當談玄實用之間。

具俠義宿儒之行，入無賴學者之林。

挾王霸縱橫之術，居乞士隱淪之位。

譽之則尊如菩薩，毀之則貶為蟊賊。

書空咄咄悲人我，弭劫無方喚奈何。


南懷瑾的狂言十二辭献给钱钟书也同样适用的。。。只要稍改几个字：


以亦仙亦佛之才，處半人半鬼之世。

治不古不今之學，當談玄實用之間。

具俠義宿儒之行，入無賴學者之林。

挾王霸縱橫之術，居乞士隱淪之位。

譽之則尊如昆仑，毀之則貶為五毛。

書空咄咄悲人我，弭劫無方喚奈何。

Epiphany

雨季：“77楼、89楼、90楼、98楼的英文出自同一个人。”

Of course, because a piece of humor was intended.

Epiphany

kemingqian：另外，还烦请回答一下我55楼的问题。读了杨绛的【吴宓先生与钱锺书】一文后，你是否还坚持杨绛写这篇文章是“因为钱钟书自出心裁，创造了“super－annuated coquette”，用来赞美杨绛，使杨绛得意非凡”这个观点。

It was a joke, so apparent that you ought not to have missed it. From 57楼：

kemingqian：“你知道杨绛为什么写这篇文章、举这个例子了吗？”

下面是转帖。

是因为钱钟书自出心裁，创造了“super－annuated coquette”，用来赞美杨绛，使杨绛得意非凡。

试译：super，超级；annuated，年代的；coquette，多情女郎；super－annuated coquette，超级年代的多情女郎，简称“超女”。

Epiphany

晓梦：“哪谈得上学术争论。他也配。”

你口口声声说“God has given thou one face”没有语法错误，一看就知道你对英文是七窍通了六窍。你有什么能力来讨论英文，来分析莎士比亚的“Hamlet”？

建议你每天临睡前读一遍你今年的名言：

“钱写的‘God has given thou one face, but you make yourself another’没有语法错误。”

再读一遍你去年的名言：

“方是当年福建省语文单科状元。也就是语文分数最高。他出国时托福和GRE的分数也是当时中国区考生最高。”

然后好好去圆你的中国梦。

Epiphany

钱大师钟书有一篇英文文章“Tragedy in Old Chinese Drama”，这是第一段：

The critical pendulum has once more swung back and there are signs that our old literature is coming into favour again. Knowing persons have also told us that there is just at present even a craze for our old literature among  foreigners and that our old drama especially has all the cry in the West. We are quite proud to hear of these things. That our old drama should lead the way of the craze need not surprise us for, though the real power of drama, as Aristotle says in his Poetics, should be felt apart from representation and action, drama can for that very reason appeal to the majority of persons whose interest does not rise above mere representation and spectacle. Moreover, our old drama richly deserves the epithet “artificial” which Lamb applies to the comedy of manners. To Western readers surfeited with drab realism and tiresome  problem-plays our old drama comes as “that breathing-place from the burthen of a perpetual moral questioning” which must be as refreshing as (say) Barrie’s pleasant fancy and pathos after an overdose of Pinero and Jones. But whatever value our old dramas may have as stage performances or as poetry, they cannot as dramas hold their own with great Western dramas. In spite of the highest respect for the old dramatists, one cannot sometimes help echoing Coleridge’s wish as regards Beaumont and Fletcher that instead of dramas, they should have written poetry in the broad sense inclusive of tzu(词) and ch’u(曲) as well. I say this without the least prejudice, because I yield to none in my enthusiasm for our old literature and would definitely range myself on the side of the angels and the ancients, should a quarrel between the Ancients and the Moderns break out in China.

下面是转帖。

钱钟书文章仅一段里面的陈词滥调就多得惊人, 这是他英文无创造性的表现。  

比方说用pendulum(钟摆)来形容世事的变化不定, 这种方式早已被人用烂了, 但钱钟书文章的一开始就用pendulum这种陈词滥调。它很现成, 用它根本用不着动脑筋, 但这也说明为什么钱钟书的英文没有创造性。
　　
再举一个例子: an overdose of sb. or sth.(药品除外)也早已是陈词滥调了。早在18世纪就出现了an overdose of wisdom这种用法, 后来越用越烂, 可钱钟书在他的文章中还在用after an overdose of这种陈腐语言!
　　
有时很简单的意思, 他偏要用矫揉造作的陈腐语言来表达。随便举个例子: 英文中I am with sb.或者I support sb.很简单、很清晰, 但钱钟书用的却是I range myself on the side of sb.这种又长又腐的说法。除了增加文章的长度, 其它什么意义都没有。

另外, most people(大多数人)又简单又道地, 但钱钟书文章中用的the majority of persons不仅仅是长, 而且是bad English。用Google查一下它们的用法马上就清楚了:
　　
约有54,800,000项符合"most people"的查询结果
约有106,000项符合"the majority of persons"的查询结果
　　
数一数钱钟书文章仅一段里面的陈词滥调有多少:
　　
the critical pendulum has once more swung back
coming into favour again
has all the cry
lead the way of
pleasant fancy and pathos
after an overdose of
I yield to none in my enthusiasm for
range myself on the side of
　　
再对照一下George Orwell的看法:
　　
[ZT] 现代英语的大师们几乎毫无例外地特别反对使用所谓“陈词滥调”（cliches）。英国散文家George Orwell (1903-1950)在他写于1946年的著名文章Politics and the English Language中指出了四大类“形象陈腐”、“含义不准”的陈词滥调，对于有志于汉译英的朋友们会有一定的帮助。

李苗

秋风落叶乱为堆
扫去还来千百回
一笑罢休闲处坐
任他着地自成灰

Epiphany

有比较才有意义。Wang Dan(也许是王丹)同学写的英文优美动人，用词精确，比喻奇特(the wind crisp and as sharp as a New England Puritan)，远远超过钱钟书写的英文。

The Education of Memory
　　
Wang Dan (Harvard University, formerly at Beijing University)
　　
"The Education of Memory," an obscure book long-forgotten by the collective readership, is a personal favorite of the formidable Professor Jones, who on the first school day surveyed the whole class with one naked eye and the other hidden behind a cloudy monocle, and declared, "Whoever does not like this book should be shot immediately!"
　　
By "formidable" I mean Prof. Jones towers far above his fellow academics in his learning and scholarship, whose reputation one day even reached a secluded, wealthy widow in New York who owned half of Manhattan. The ever nice, still young lady consulted with her conscience and then her lawyers, and decided to endow Jones with a professorship in her name, thus enhancing his fame and ensuring her own immortality. "Keep up with the Joneses," intoned she, most memorably.
　　
So you can imagine in what fear mixed with awe we all hurried after class to the largest used bookstore, a permanent fixture near campus. The owner, a faded old lady in her 60's I guess, was in ecstasy, so ecstatic she doubled the book's price without prior notice. Having forked out $10, I ran back to the library to be educated by "The Education of Memory," with the prospect of a possible execution looming large outside - the autumn leaves yellowed with the mature sun, the wind crisp and as sharp as a New England Puritan, a twilight bell from the church tolling to remind the faithful of the vespers soon begun.
　　
But the book was delightful! This I found out after having read the first page, and I continued with increasing excitement. A ghost-like librarian appeared from nowhere, gently admonishing me to be considerate toward the other patrons. I waved him away, and so did the book‘s author, one Nicholas Slonim. Together we haunted his childhood, explored his hometown, met (I for the first time, he having lost count) his playmates, and saw, to our great astonishment, the budding of his youth within the short space of mere 50 pages. There I parted with him, promising to return and step the legend of his youth into the noon.
　　
I kept my promise and, a week later, found myself being confronted in the class with a life-and-death question posed by Prof. Jones, "Well, Young Gentleman, how do you like the book?" With a blushing face and trembling lips that always indicate the truth is being told, I offered, "Yes, Sir, I like it very much." "Really? Then tell the class a story from your memory, in the book's fashion if you indeed like it and are educated by it," ordered the Professor.
　　
I nearly panicked for my oral English was shaky at best. My memory took advantage of this and deserted me, leaving me alone with the hushed classmates and the stern Professor. Then I was alone. A minute passed, as solemn as an eternity. At length I collected myself into a presentable shape, and grabbed a piece of memory that had tiptoed back to see how I was doing. "This is a story I want to tell from my own memory," I began. "Years ago when I was in Beijing I knew a boy who was about to die at one midnight while he was in ..."
　　
"Stop!" roared the Professor, puzzling me. "Please stop at here. You would ruin a great memory if you didn't."

The link: http://lugusun.weebly.com/3/post/2011/03/29.html

kemingqian

雨季：“77楼、89楼、90楼、98楼的英文出自同一个人。”

Of course, because a piece of humor was intended.
Epiphany 发表于 2013-6-30 16:21

哦，你那条77楼的【特大喜讯：权威的《大英百科全书》回信了！】是自导自演啊，承认的倒是蛮爽快的。要是能够自觉地承认在花间同学81楼或老程同学86楼的帖子后面，就更好了。

kemingqian

kemingqian：kemingqian：另外，还烦请回答一下我55楼的问题。读了杨绛的【吴宓先生与钱锺书】一文后，你是否还坚持杨绛写这篇文章是“因为钱钟书自出心裁，创造了“super－annuated coquette”，用来赞美杨绛，使杨绛得意非凡”这个观点。
It was a joke, so apparent that you ought not to have missed it. From 57楼：

Epiphany 发表于 2013-6-30 16:26

前面的“特大喜讯”是幽默，这个例子又是玩笑。你为什么喜欢开对自己的主张不利的玩笑呢？

kemingqian

122楼又开始说钱钟书的英文“陈词滥调”多, “英文无创造性”了。当然，是转帖，追究一下肯定又是对你不利的玩笑或幽默，算了。

至于124楼的英文比122的要好之类的说法（比较法），有点太小孩子气。（从你很顺溜地运用“特大喜讯”这个中央人民广播电台用词来估计，其实年事应该不低了）。刚才给124楼文章的作者打了个电话，他要我郑重声明，他坚决否定一切有关他的英文比钱先生的要好这种说法，呵呵。

雨季

Epiphany和复旦的陆谷孙教授有什么联系吗？门徒？

Epiphany

kemingqian：“前面的‘特大喜讯’是幽默，这个例子又是玩笑。你为什么喜欢开对自己的主张不利的玩笑呢？”

因为a poker-faced discussion毫无趣味。另外我的玩笑并不一定对我自己的主张不利。

kemingqian：“至于124楼的英文比122的要好之类的说法（比较法），有点太小孩子气。”

我又不是小孩子。你认真读一下Wang Dan同学上面写的英文，就会得出和我相同的结论：远远超过钱钟书写的英文。

Epiphany

雨季：“Epiphany和复旦的陆谷孙教授有什么联系吗？门徒？”

不是。陆谷孙教授在人人网上有主页，所以知道他的一些动态。

你对上面Wang Dan(可能是王丹)同学写的英文有何评价？

emmer

122# Epiphany 我不明白，对一篇论文而言，这样的文风有什么不合适？充满芥末一般的新奇譬喻，才会是问题吧。另外，时代不同，语言风格是有改变的。你读艾略特的文章，也会觉得绕来绕去。

test

不奇怪，他们一个挺方，一个黑方。
zoufeng_1234 发表于 2013-6-28 20:47

观点不同，可以争执；但才气相近的人，应该彼此欣赏。否则，这个世界会显得无趣。

zoufeng_1234

Epiphany在英文上确实有才， 晓梦在辩论上貌似有才，但是我和他实战后发现他容易为辩而辩，逻辑上没有真正做到自洽。

test

Epiphany在英文上确实有才， 晓梦在辩论上貌似有才，但是我和他实战后发现他容易为辩而辩，逻辑上没有真正做到自洽。
zoufeng_1234 发表于 2013-7-1 21:42

你将“自己”视为参考系，这个算逻辑“自洽”吗？

雨季

你对上面Wang Dan(可能是王丹)同学写的英文有何评价？
Epiphany 发表于 2013-6-30 22:15

这篇文章作为英语作文是不错的。不过，除却英语作文课以外的任何一门学科，用这样的文体来写文章，或历史或哲学，或社会学心理学戏剧文学图书馆学考古学，肯定通不过。口琴钢琴，用途不一。