Epiphany

emmer：“我不明白，对一篇论文而言，这样的文风有什么不合适？充满芥末一般的新奇譬喻，才会是问题吧。另外，时代不同，语言风格是有改变的。你读艾略特的文章，也会觉得绕来绕去。”

实际上这是一篇essay，但钱钟书的问题是，由于他的英文没有独创性，所以只能靠引用别人的话，再加上他自己难以计数的陈词滥调。

122楼钱大师钟书写的英文唯一使人留下印象的只有：“that breathing-place from the burthen of a perpetual moral questioning”，而这不是他写的，是他引用Charles Lamb(1775 - 1834)的essay，题目是On the Artificial Comedy of the Last Century。另外，钱钟书引用得并不准确，在that和breathing-place中间漏掉了一个词happy。

同样是写戏剧(theater)，Charles Lamb写的英文(见下面)形象生动，充满活力，毫无陈词滥调。钱钟书写的英文不可能与之相比，因为根本就不在同一个等级上。

“We carry our fire-side concerns to the theatre with us. We do not go thither, like our ancestors, to escape from the pressure of reality, so much as to confirm our experience of it; to make assurance double, and take a bond of fate. We must live our toilsome lives twice over, as it was the mournful privilege of Ulysses to descend twice to the shades. All that neutral ground of character, which stood between vice and virtue; or which in fact was indifferent to neither, where neither properly was called in question; that happy breathing-place from the burthen of a perpetual moral questioning -- the sanctuary and quiet Alsatia of hunted casuistry -- is broken up and disfranchised, as injurious to the interests of society. The privileges of the place are taken away by law. We dare not dally with images, or names, of wrong. We bark like foolish dogs at shadows. We dread infection from the scenic representation of disorder, and fear a painted pustule. In our anxiety that our morality should not take cold, we wrap it up in a great blanket surtout of precaution against the breeze and sunshine.”

Epiphany

雨季：“这篇文章作为英语作文是不错的。”

Wang Dan同学写的英文确实很好，令人印象深刻。从英文信的角度还可进行比较。

下面是钱钟书写给林书武的一封英文信：

My Dear Shu-Wu,
　　　　
Your letter gives me a joyful surprise. Your English is astonishingly good. This is not “flannel” or “butter” but my sincere opinion (my hand upon my heart!). The idea found from your version of Chairman’s statement is, to say the least, quite unjust. Perhaps your hand is recovering some of its old cunning momentarily lost through long lack of practice. At any rate, it would be a pity - nay, a sin, a crime - to let your English get rusty & become finally unserviceable.
　　　　
Yours in haste
　　　　
By a slip of pen, you wrote “allocation” instead of “Collocation”. This is a mere peccadillo. Don’t let meticulousness about such trifles cramp your style.

这个转帖统计了钱钟书在信中用的陈词滥调：

[ZT] Qian Zhongshu's heavy use of cliches here: joyful surprise, my hand upon my heart!, recovering some of its old cunning, a pity - nay, a sin, a crime, cramp your style. (By the way, "cramp your style" has become so hackneyed it even sits, the style uncramped, in music: for example, "Cramp Your Style" from the rapper Ice-T.)

Epiphany

这是Wang Dan同学写给campus student newspaper的一封英文长信。即使从最严格的标准去衡量，也找不到任何错误。不仅如此，Wang Dan同学写的英文文采飞扬（“I'm now at Harvard, parking myself daily inside the great Library, until the permit expires at midnight”；“when words were still the young daughters of the Earth”），毫无陈词滥调。长信最后引用Flaubert的一句俏皮话，幽默结尾。

结论非常明显：Wang Dan同学写的英文远远超过钱大师钟书写的英文。

Dear Sir:

I received your invitation asking me to write something - anything - on my American experience as a Letter to the Editor on the campus student newspaper. I'm glad to oblige.

My American experience, if I must use this vague phrase, stands no better chance of universality than anyone else's. Let me use a string of adjectives to express my impression of this country: vast, great, hilarious, childlike, exasperating, and green (the tree of nature as well as the tree of money). I'm no poet and the poetic language applies poorly here, nor does the lyrical outpouring suit the present moment of the war America is waging, yet I recall the minute the fatal collapse was happening in New York City, a classmate of mine, who grew up there, stared at the TV and murmured softly: "So farewell, my fairy-tale...."

I'm now at Harvard, parking myself daily inside the great Library, until the permit expires at midnight. I explore, I embrace, I cling to a piece of knowledge until I'm assimilated into it, or until it's assimilated into me, whichever occurs earlier.

Yes, I like to visit from time to time some online Chinese forums, for example Si Hai Zong Tan (literal translation: Four Seas Free Talk). Many unexpected things have since materialized: once I found my Chinese name had been distorted into something absurd; at another time I read something attributed to me that I had never written; on an early morning I accessed the Internet only to find an old picture of mine, downloaded by someone else, greeting me: "Hello, Wang Dan!" Again and again these have appeared in the margins of my life, without influencing in the least its basic text.

What I'm reading now? you asked. Oh, I'm reading a lot of textbooks and reference books for the degree requirement. However, I start to tackle James Joyce's Dubliners. Granted, the similarity between Dublin and Beijing, the city I had lived in before I came to this country, is about as much as the similarity between Boston and Washington, but I perform magic when reading. I mentally substitute Beijing hutongs (alleys) for the winding Dublin streets. The bawdy Dublin citizens become in my mind's eye the noisy Beijing populace. Into this concluding passage of "The Dead":

"Yes, the newspapers were right: snow was general all over Ireland. It was falling on every part of the dark central plain, on the treeless hills, falling softly upon the Bog of Allen and, farther westward, softly falling into the dark mutinous Shannon waves. It was falling, too, upon every part of the lonely churchyard on the hill where Michael Furey lay buried. It lay thickly drifted on the crooked crosses and headstones, on the spears of the little gate, on the barren thorns. His soul swooned slowly as he heard the snow falling faintly through the universe and faintly falling, like the descent of their last end, upon all the living and the dead."

I silently insert "It was falling, further, upon every square inch of Tiananmen where a dream was crushed." Joyce, as an artist, would have hardly agreed, and here I ask for his forgiveness to tinker with his masterpiece; I simply can't help it. I'm barred from going back to China now, but I'm hopefully planning to visit Beijing in 2008 to watch the Olympic Games.

The English language I have been trying my best to master. By degrees I begin to appreciate the loving caress Shakespeare rendered on every word he wrote, when words were still the young daughters of the Earth. They are still the young daughters of the Earth.

However I'm far from at home with the adopted language. Flaubert once quipped, "Whenever I see someone write a bad sentence, I reach for my gun." Don't shoot me though: I've done my best.

A faithful reader of your newspaper I remain,

Wang Dan

The link: http://69.65.19.160/~nodomain/xwh/04/3/54535.html

老程

世人皆知钱钟书英文好，能挑出钱老英文滥的人英文岂不更好？奇葩无处不在啊！
EP勇于挑战权威，勇气可嘉，可惜钱老早已驾鹤西去，无法百度尔等大作。

zoufeng_1234

据说王丹在美国的博士论文是用中文完成的，求辟谣。

kemingqian

王丹读博前后有十年吧，应该是用英文写的。

kemingqian

Epiphany在英文上确实有才， 晓梦在辩论上貌似有才，但是我和他实战后发现他容易为辩而辩，逻辑上没有真正做到自洽。
zoufeng_1234 发表于 2013-7-1 21:42

Epiphany英文的才在哪里？冒充大英百科全书写上一段，也让人从语气上一眼看穿。所有的英语都是一个味，四平八稳，机械化。只能说，语法很好。

kemingqian

kemingqian：“前面的‘特大喜讯’是幽默，这个例子又是玩笑。你为什么喜欢开对自己的主张不利的玩笑呢？”

因为a poker-faced discussion毫无趣味。另外我的玩笑并不一定对我自己的主张不利。

kemingqian：“ ...
Epiphany 发表于 2013-6-30 22:12

你在122楼口口声声说要反对英语表现里的陈词滥调，你这个poker-faced discussion，可是被用的烂的又烂的英语，干嘛不自己来个创新词？

老程

王在北大时英文是不太行滴，在美国混了那么多年不行也行啦。

kemingqian

世人皆知钱钟书英文好，能挑出钱老英文滥的人英文岂不更好？奇葩无处不在啊！
EP勇于挑战权威，勇气可嘉，可惜钱老早已驾鹤西去，无法百度尔等大作。
老程 发表于 2013-7-2 08:25

现在这种挑战已经到了思维混乱的程度。因为觉得王丹英语好，所以就认定钱钟书英语滥。根据这种逻辑，我可以说老程的普通话好，所以周泽雄的中文差。

zoufeng_1234

王丹读博前后有十年吧，应该是用英文写的。
kemingqian 发表于 2013-7-2 09:25

反正当时我得知他博士论文是中文写的。

克明兄可以google一下。

Epiphany

kemingqian：“你在122楼口口声声说要反对英语表现里的陈词滥调，你这个poker-faced discussion，可是被用的烂的又烂的英语，干嘛不自己来个创新词？”

这儿“a poker-faced discussion”就是中文里面的“一本正经的讨论”，而英文的“poker-faced”是一个形容词，非常形象。你说该怎样翻译“一本正经的讨论”？

Epiphany

kemingqian：“现在这种挑战已经到了思维混乱的程度。因为觉得王丹英语好，所以就认定钱钟书英语滥。根据这种逻辑，我可以说老程的普通话好，所以周泽雄的中文差。”

对不起，我已经做了比较：Wang Dan同学写的英文远远超过钱大师钟书写的英文。

Epiphany

zoufeng_1234：“据说王丹在美国的博士论文是用中文完成的，求辟谣。”

用Google检索一下，这种谣言马上就破灭。

A comparative study of state violence in mainland China and Taiwan in the 1950s
by Wang, Dan, Ph.D., HARVARD UNIVERSITY, 2008, 187 pages

http://gradworks.umi.com/33/12/3312615.html

kemingqian

kemingqian：“现在这种挑战已经到了思维混乱的程度。因为觉得王丹英语好，所以就认定钱钟书英语滥。根据这种逻辑，我可以说老程的普通话好，所以周泽雄的中文差。”

对不起，我已经做了比较：Wang Dan同学写的英文远远超过钱大师钟书写的英文。
Epiphany 发表于 2013-7-2 10:25

不用客气，这种比较法，我就尊称它为The Logic of Epiphany吧

kemingqian

学习了一下The Logic of  Epiphany，举例如下

1）        王丹的英语好，所以钱钟书的英文差。
2）        老程的普通话好，所以周泽雄的中文差。
3）        中国人乒乓球打得好，所以足球没意思。
4）        清蒸鱼好吃，所以红烧肉没有人喜欢。
5）        喜欢广州姑娘，所以北京女孩难看。

起头一定要说：我比较过了-----

emmer

138# Epiphany 你在用钱钟书的方法挑钱钟书的毛病，现代社会已经进入文本爆炸的时代，所以给每句话找个出处没有什么意思。还是“无一字无来历”的影响太深。
再说，关公战秦琼什么的最没意思了。你到《纽约客》上随便挑篇文章，写得都挺好的。老盯着这些有什么意思呢？

Epiphany

kemingqian：“不用客气，这种比较法，我就尊称它为The Logic of Epiphany吧”

看看豆瓣上其他读过钱钟书英文的人的负面评论，当然他们都是很委婉的。

[ZT] 钱锺书英文文集的评论

2006-05-04 07:35:51 来自: le frisson

觉得钱掉书袋的习惯略有一些过，文字也不够地道。和钱一样在牛津取得B. Litt.学位的王佐良英文要更加地道，也许是因为钱通晓的语言非常多，而佐良先生在英文方面更加用力（王的法文也应该不错）。读着这本书，就觉察出他的审美范式非常地中国：他所追求的，是查证出典；他的目的是取得一种high brow的鉴赏判断，虽然他熟习当代文论，可似乎并没有被新的治学路数动摇。为了一种工巧而牺牲语言的自然节奏，所以读来有些吃力。他还时常违反英文中尽量省略避免重复的行文规则。

2011-07-21 12:09:20 来自: 细玉流光

“为工巧牺牲语言的自然节奏”这话说的太到位了，行文聱牙诘屈，甚至有沾染中式英语流弊之感。才看到四分之一处，也许后面会渐入佳境？

zoufeng_1234

美国一直到上个世纪的70年代，如果大学教授的博士学位不是英国拿的而是美国本土拿的，就感觉要矮人一截，更不要说钱钟书留学的时代了。

钱钟书的英文是上个世纪30年代的英国式英语，在当时是代表主流的标准的英文，而Epiphany欣赏的英文也就是王丹的英文，是当代的美国英语。美国英语和英国英语本来就有区别，更何况时代相差了将近一个世纪。而且这一个世纪英美之间的势力和实力对比发生了天翻地覆的变化。如果按英国标准来衡量，美国英语就是属于没文化的土包子英文，而按现在的美国英语来衡量，上个世纪的英国英语就是拗口繁复的老掉牙英语。

就像意大利咏叹调和黑人饶舌rap, 梅派京剧唱腔和披头士音乐，你们非要比个高下，实在是......

Epiphany

zoufeng_1234：“钱钟书的英文是上个世纪30年代的英国式英语，在当时是代表主流的标准的英文，而Epiphany欣赏的英文也就是王丹的英文，是当代的美国英语。”

其实我欣赏的是好英文，无论是美国英文还是英国英文。Charles Lamb(1775 - 1834)的英文是英式的，但我认为非常好，形象生动，充满活力，毫无陈词滥调。钱钟书写的英文不可能与之相比，因为根本就不在同一个层次上。

同样是写戏剧(theater)，你可以读一下Charles Lamb的英文(见下面)，再对照一下钱钟书的英文(122楼)，就可看出两者巨大的差别。

“We carry our fire-side concerns to the theatre with us. We do not go thither, like our ancestors, to escape from the pressure of reality, so much as to confirm our experience of it; to make assurance double, and take a bond of fate. We must live our toilsome lives twice over, as it was the mournful privilege of Ulysses to descend twice to the shades. All that neutral ground of character, which stood between vice and virtue; or which in fact was indifferent to neither, where neither properly was called in question; that happy breathing-place from the burthen of a perpetual moral questioning -- the sanctuary and quiet Alsatia of hunted casuistry -- is broken up and disfranchised, as injurious to the interests of society. The privileges of the place are taken away by law. We dare not dally with images, or names, of wrong. We bark like foolish dogs at shadows. We dread infection from the scenic representation of disorder, and fear a painted pustule. In our anxiety that our morality should not take cold, we wrap it up in a great blanket surtout of precaution against the breeze and sunshine.”

Epiphany

晓梦：“那你有没有分析一下这篇王丹博士论文的英文水平？”

不评论学位论文，因为历史专业的学位论文有固定的范式，以资料的翔实、论证的严谨等为主。

要了解Wang Dan同学的英文写作水平，可以读一下124楼的essay(“The Education of Memory”)以及140楼的英文长信。你也许不同意，但我认为Wang Dan同学写的英文远远超过钱大师钟书写的英文。

钱钟书自视甚高：

“1952年的全国高等院校院系调整，把林同济调入复旦大学外文系教书。虽然不能继续政治史、文化史的研究，总算还能发挥他英文的特长。钱钟书曾大力赞扬林同济的parliamentary English（议会式雄辩英语），称泱泱中国真正精通英文的仅一人半，他本人算一人，剩下的半个就是长江以南的林同济。”
http://www.aisixiang.com/data/21179-3.html

更滑稽的是，钱钟书甚至以为外国人来北京，先要看的是熊猫和他！来自德国学者莫芝宜佳的文章《钱钟书与杨绛二三事》(发表于2006年第10期《读书》杂志)：

“钱先生有句话说：‘外国人来北京，他们先要看的是两样东西，熊猫和我。’”

但读了钱钟书的英文，感觉他的实际英文水平与他的上述自我评价以及官方的多年宣传反差极大。我发现钱钟书的问题是，由于他的英文没有独创性，所以只能靠引用别人的话(这就是英文所说的name-dropping)，再加上他自己难以计数的陈词滥调。豆瓣上有一些读过钱钟书英文的人(155楼)，虽然他们都很委婉，但其评论也是负面的。

其实杨宪益已经评价钱钟书“英文不是很好”，不过那段访谈被删。

[ZT] 大人物的小细节

刚刚交的那期，写了一篇杨宪益的口述，这是我写了这么多口述，采访最长时间的一位（一共去了六次），单是采访原纪录整理出来就2万多字，其实采访时已经知道仅仅为一篇口述，是不需要问的那么细致的，可能更多的，还是出于对这位老人家的尊重吧。

拼命删，还是写了5页。交给李大人，让他全权处理。李大人告诉我，只是删了杨宪益说的柯庆施的好话（“解放初期我在南京市政协作秘书长工作，市长柯庆施是安徽人，拿我当同乡看，我们经常一起吃饭、聊天。他也没有汽车，来往或骑车或步行，当时给我留下非常好的印象”），意料之中。意外的是，周二上班时，主编大人特地跑来告诉我：三联的大领导把钱钟书那段删了。我一时想不起来哪一句话有冒犯之处，第一反应是杨说钱在牛津时是书呆子，心想这也不算什么坏话啊，就算杨不说，地球人也能看出来？主编说，是把杨评价钱“英文不是很好”拿掉了，据说是怕杨老太太看了不高兴，找上门来。

孬歪甭

（唱）我为革命运输忙运输忙……

拈花时评-lianhuaxiaofo @lianhuaxiaofo        35分
“文革”江青“梁效”班底：冯友兰、季羡林、汤一介、周一良、钱伟长、张光斗、魏建功、钱学森、华罗庚、钱钟书、杨荣国、刘大杰……一篇篇“雄文”出世：“小报抄大报，大报抄梁效”！“这帮鹰犬的“检查”，还在档案局里，遗羞子孙、遗臭万年！

花间对影

Epiphany的帖子真够“柴”的，言语干枯逻辑混乱，只会使劲转帖，转来转去都是些垃圾帖，估计黑钱派见了他都会起脚踹他个大马趴。被拍得一地尘土，不作声也就罢了，死要面子也就罢了，他还等着别人给他喝彩，没人喝彩，他就给自己贴标签：喏，这段是幽默，喏，那段是诙谐。——这还叫幽默？这是给镜子里的自己敬礼。人家纳西索斯长得美，临水照花也就罢了，你这么个“人柴”也对着镜子骗自己，——算你狠，你连自己也骗。
《笑林广记》有个笑话：两个冬烘都骂对方是假道学，吵得一塌糊涂，最后决定去找孔子裁决。孔子迎下台阶，听完两个人的话后说：道学博大精深，两位都是真道学，连我都佩服得紧。-——两人大喜而归。弟子们怨孔子太过奉承了，孔子说：这种人哄了去便是，和他较什么真。

得了，我把Epiphany 要转的帖子链接放这儿，您就别再忙乎了。Epiphany 不就是那位博学的Cody9999么？6年了，怎么还这么博学呢？
http://bbs.tianya.cn/post-books-91923-1.shtml

金秋

Epiphany的帖子真够“柴”的，言语干枯逻辑混乱，只会使劲转帖，转来转去都是些垃圾帖，估计黑钱派见了他都会起脚踹他个大马趴。被拍得一地尘土，不作声也就罢了，死要面子也就罢了，他还等着别人给他喝彩，没人喝彩 ...
花间对影 发表于 2013-7-3 12:41

哈哈~~花间一发帖，坛子里就生动多了。

吹笛在湖北

（唱）我为革命运输忙运输忙……

拈花时评-lianhuaxiaofo @lianhuaxiaofo        35分
“文革”江青“梁效”班底：冯友兰、季羡林、汤一介、周一良、钱伟长、张光斗、魏建功、钱学森、华罗庚、钱钟书、杨荣国、 ...
孬歪甭 发表于 2013-7-3 10:41

  冯友兰、季羡林、汤一介、周一良、钱伟长、张光斗、魏建功、钱学森、华罗庚、钱钟书、杨荣国

雨季

（唱）我为革命运输忙运输忙……

拈花时评-lianhuaxiaofo @lianhuaxiaofo        35分
“文革”江青“梁效”班底：冯友兰、季羡林、汤一介、周一良、钱伟长、张光斗、魏建功、钱学森、华罗庚、钱钟书、杨荣国、 ...
孬歪甭 发表于 2013-7-3 10:41

为了革命的目标，有些人是嗜谎成性。到时又来句是转帖，推卸一切责任。比单纯撒谎更可恶。

Epiphany

花间对影：“得了，我把Epiphany 要转的帖子链接放这儿，您就别再忙乎了。Epiphany 不就是那位博学的Cody9999么？6年了，怎么还这么博学呢？”

那就请你写个详细的论证报告，恭恭敬敬地呈交给我。你放心，我会给你宽松打分的，不为别的，只为了你曾抛花弃影，在这儿吸了不少假烟，中了不少真毒。

Epiphany

预告：以后有空，会讨论《红楼梦》的英译。

花间对影

嗬！ Epiphany 九年前用破布缝了条绿油套裤，伸出窗外吆喝到现在，自己一个人吆喝嫌不得劲，就换几个面具变着脸儿吆喝。也该去缝条新的了，这绿油套裤早就褴褛不堪，衣不蔽体也怪寒碜的。
Epiphany难得自己写个帖子，却是跪请本人给个报告，告诉你：报告不来，不得平身；等报告来了，砸你个一头一脸，埋了你这文字枯骨，再休想平身。

老程

168# 花间对影
温文尔雅的花间竟如此犀利！