[原创] 洛克论宽容的第一封信，试着翻译（草稿）

WIND

我在一个帖子中提到了这些人：洛克，亚当·斯密，大卫·休谟，埃德蒙·伯克，亚当·弗格森，托克维尔，阿克顿。其实这些人的著作并不好读，尤其对于我等处于无信仰的文化背景中人来说更甚。我读洛克的政府论，论宗教宽容，以前是有人翻译过的，读得很晦涩，所以我打算去读英文版的。然而太长我又望尘莫及，因此找到这封信，不长，洛克当年也很赞赏英文的翻译者。
我试着来翻译一下，译文参照82年版的吴云贵先生的。求主给我勇气。

WIND

A Letter Concerning Toleration
一封关于宽容的信
by John Locke
1689
Translated by William Popple
Honoured Sir,
尊敬的先生，
Since you are pleased to inquire what are my thoughts about the mutual toleration of Christians in their different professions of religion, I must needs answer you freely that I esteem that toleration to be the chief characteristic mark of the true Church.
既然你高兴的问到：关于不同教派基督徒之间的宽容问题我的看法如何，我必须坦率的回答你，我认为宽容是真正的教会首要的特征。

WIND

For whatsoever some people boast of theantiquity of places and names, or of the pomp of their outward worship; others,of the reformation of their discipline; all, of the orthodoxy of their faith —for everyone is orthodox to himself — these things, and all others of thisnature, are much rather marks of men striving for power and empire over oneanother than of the Church of Christ. Let anyone have never so true a claim toall these things, yet if he be destitute of charity, meekness, and good-will ingeneral towards all mankind, even to those that are not Christians, he iscertainly yet short of being a true Christian himself. "The kings of theGentiles exercise leadership over them," said our Saviour to hisdisciples, "but ye shall not be so."[1]
因为无论一些人如何夸耀他们教会教堂名字与地点的古老，或者他们表面礼拜的华丽；而另外的人，则夸耀他们教义的归正；所有的人，都会夸耀他们信仰的正统性——因为每个人都会以自己为正统——这些事情，以及其它诸如此类的东西都不是基督教会的标记，只不过是人们互相争夺统治他人权力的标记罢了。如果一个人没有这方面的声称，然而，倘若他缺乏仁慈，顺服，以及对人类甚至那些非基督徒的善意，他自己当然还不能成为一个真正的基督徒。我们的救世主曾对他的门徒说过：“外邦人有君王为主治理他们，但你们不可这样”（《路加福音》第22章第25节）。

WIND

加粗的那句吴先生误译，其余都不错。

李大苗

For whatsoever some people boast of the antiquity of places and names,or of the pomp of their outward worship; others, of the reformation oftheir discipline; all, of the orthodoxy of their faith — for everyoneis orthodox to himself — these things, and all others of this nature,are much rather marks of men striving for power and empire over oneanother than of the Church of Christ. Let anyone have never so true a claim to all these things,yet if he be destitute of charity, meekness, and good-will in generaltowards all mankind, even to those that are not Christians, he iscertainly yet short of being a true Christian himself. "The kings ofthe Gentiles exercise leadership over them," said our Saviour to hisdisciples, "but ye shall not be so."...
WIND 发表于 2009-7-8 20:49

。
places，在这里说得似乎更应该是“身份”或“地位”；names，则以“门族”为更妥。

outward worship，这里哪有“华丽”的语义？似乎是“宗教仪式的外在形式”，意思是固守宗教仪式的形式，这可与后面的语句成对应。

对应的是reformation oftheir discipline，即宗教规矩或仪轨的变革。指的大约应当马丁路德或加尔文的宗教改革，可能吧。

李大苗

Let anyone have never so true a claim to all these things，似乎是，“任何人，即使他并不真的嗜好全部这些，……

WIND

places，在这里说得似乎更应该是“身份”或“地位”；names，则以“门族”为更妥。

outward worship，这里哪有“华丽”的语义？似乎是“宗教仪式的外在形式”，意思是固守宗教仪式的形式，这可与后面的语句成对应。

对应的是reformation oftheir discipline，即宗教规矩或仪轨的变革。指的大约应当马丁路德或加尔文的宗教改革，可能吧。
李大苗 发表于 2009-7-8 21:40

谢谢大苗兄。
1，places and names,在此我也觉得有点上下不顺。译成出生地和名字不顺，译成地位和门族也不顺，因为基督信仰中讲这些有点莫名其妙。
2，前面几句有个共同的boast（吹牛，夸耀），“or of the pomp of their outward worship”，加粗字即为仪式的华丽。
3，在外人看来，基督教只有两次分裂，其实在基督徒看来，随时都在归正。

WIND

Let anyone have never so true a claim to all these things，似乎是，“任何人，即使他并不真的嗜好全部这些，……
李大苗 发表于 2009-7-8 21:54

前面说了三种夸耀，这应该说的是没有夸耀的人，如果怎样怎样···

李大苗

前面几句有个共同的boast（吹牛，夸耀），“or of the pomp of their outward worship”，加粗字即为仪式的华丽。
======
是，我漏看了。

showcraft

the antiquity of places and names
爵位与世族传统的绵延

WIND

我突然想到应该翻译为：教会教堂名字与地点的古老

网事情缘

这封信结束了？

推荐一下，对原创和第一手资料的翻译是应该受到热烈欢迎的。

WIND

没有想到能被网事兄加为精华，非常感谢。我打算能够改掉被吴先生误解的部分，而这种误解很可能是被整个汉语世界误解的东西。

WIND

The business of true religion is quite another thing. It is not instituted in order to the erecting of an external pomp, nor to the obtaining of ecclesiastical dominion, nor to the exercising of compulsive force, but to the regulating of men's lives, according to the rules of virtue and piety. Whosoever will list himself under the banner of Christ, must, in the first place and above all things, make war upon his own lusts and vices. It is in vain for any man to usurp the name of Christian, without holiness of life, purity of manners, benignity and meekness of spirit. "Let everyone that nameth the name of Christ, depart from iniquity."[2]
真正的宗教信仰完全是另一回事。它不是为了建立浮华的仪式而创立，也不是为了获得教会的统治权或行使强制力，而是为了依据美德与虔诚的规则调整人们的生活。无论是谁，如果他愿意置身于基督的旗帜之下，那么首要的和高于一切的，他必须向他自己的贪婪和恶行宣战。任何人若没有圣洁的生活，正直的行为，仁慈与顺服的精神，那么僭取基督徒的名义是徒劳的。“凡称呼主名的人，总要离开不义”（《提摩太后书》第2章第19节）。

WIND

粗字吴先生译为：“首要的和高于一切的，就是向自己的邪恶和私欲开战。”
诅咒“私”也是汉字的一大发明，私欲就是个人的欲望，在一定限度内的私欲不但正常，而且无可非议，超过必要的限度而贪婪才是邪恶。

网事情缘

没有想到能被网事兄加为精华，非常感谢。我打算能够改掉被吴先生误解的部分，而这种误解很可能是被整个汉语世界误解的东西。
WIND 发表于 2009-7-9 13:56

wind兄不客气，推荐优秀的帖子是俺的份内工作，兄能提供一个更加通达、准确的翻译，才是件功德，应该谢谢你。

WIND

"Thou, when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren," said our Lord to Peter.[3]It would, indeed, be very hard for one that appears careless about his own salvation to persuade me that he were extremely concerned for mine. For it is impossible that those should sincerely and heartily apply themselves to make other people Christians, who have not really embraced the Christian religion in their own hearts. If the Gospel and the apostles may be credited, no man can be a Christian without charity and without that faith which works, not by force, but by love. Now, I appeal to the consciences of those that persecute, torment, destroy, and kill other men upon pretence of religion, whether they do it out of friendship and kindness towards them or no?
我们的主曾对彼得说过：“你回头以后，要坚固你的兄弟”（《路加福音》第22章第32节）。一个对拯救自己漠不关心的人，要使我相信他特别关心拯救我，那的确是很困难的。因为那些在内心并未真正接受基督信仰的人，是不可能热忱和由衷的从事将他人归化基督徒的工作的。如果福音书和使徒们是可信的，那么，任何人若没有仁慈，没有那种不是靠外力而是靠爱心而得来的信仰，是不能成为基督徒的。这里，我要向那些以信仰为借口迫害，折磨，毁灭和杀害他人的人的良心呼吁，他们这样做，是出于对他人的友善和仁慈，抑或相反？

WIND

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WIND

wind兄不客气，推荐优秀的帖子是俺的份内工作，兄能提供一个更加通达、准确的翻译，才是件功德，应该谢谢你。
网事情缘 发表于 2009-7-9 14:32

吴先生的那个翻译是不错的。不过我希望所有对基督信仰感兴趣的朋友都来校正一下。英文中文贴在一起，信仰是需要学习的。

浦右淞左

举双手赞同WIND兄这个新尝试，也钦佩网事情缘兄加精的见识。

介绍外来文化，首先必须注重介绍的精确性。以往的谬误，有的因为时代条件，有的因为个人的阅历和能力，通过重译不仅可以发现介绍者、翻译者本身的问题，同时也可以发现本国文化中的一些结构性问题。

人约黄昏后

也期待emmer，小妖怪，采采，david等众多英文好手进来共同盖楼~~

梅茗

ux 21# 人约黄昏后

是的，燕友北美分舵的都是外语通~

WIND

ux 21# 人约黄昏后  

是的，燕友北美分舵的都是外语通~
梅茗 发表于 2009-7-9 21:17

那高手们一定要来定夺一下。我先拿出我的粗陋作品。

WIND

And I shall then indeed, and not until then, believe they do so, when I shall see those fiery zealots correcting, in the same manner, their friends and familiar acquaintance for the manifest sins they commit against the precepts of the Gospel; when I shall see them persecute with fire and sword the members of their own communion that are tainted with enormous vices and without amendment are in danger of eternal perdition; and when I shall see them thus express their love and desire of the salvation of their souls by the infliction of torments and exercise of all manner of cruelties.
我只有在下述情形下才相信他们确实是出于对他人的友善和仁慈，这就是：我看到那些宗教狂热者因为他们的朋友和家人明显的违背福音书的戒律的罪恶也用同样的方式来匡正；或者用火与剑来迫害那些以大罪来玷污他们自己的教会，而且若不悔改便有永入地狱的危险的同派教友们；以及他们对他们自己灵魂的拯救也施以折磨和残酷的方式来表达他们的爱心与愿望。

WIND

For if it beout of a principle of charity, as they pretend, and love to men's souls thatthey deprive them of their estates, maim them with corporal punishments, starveand torment them in noisome prisons, and in the end even take away their lives— I say, if all this be done merely to make men Christians and procure theirsalvation, why then do they suffer whoredom, fraud, malice, and such-likeenormities, which (according to the apostle)[4] manifestlyrelish of heathenish corruption, to predominate so much and abound amongsttheir flocks and people? These, and such-like things, are certainly morecontrary to the glory of God, to the purity of the Church, and to the salvationof souls, than any conscientious dissent from ecclesiastical decisions, orseparation from public worship, whilst accompanied with innocence of life.
因为如果是出于他们伪称的仁慈的原则，他们剥夺别人的财产，施以肉体的惩罚使人伤残，在恶臭不堪的牢狱中饥饿和折磨人，直至最后夺去别人的生命来关爱人的灵魂——我要说，如果所有这一切仅仅是为了使他人成为基督徒并且拯救他们的话，那么，为什么要忍受卖淫，欺骗，仇恨，以及诸如此类的恶行在信徒中如此的流行呢？（据罗马人书第1章）这些恶行很明显的是受非基督徒堕落的引诱。这些，以及诸如此类的事情，较之任何对教会决议的正直的异议，或者脱离公共的敬拜而本身过着无罪的生活的人，当然的更加有损于上帝的荣耀，有损于教会的圣洁，有损于灵魂的拯救。

WIND

Why, then, does this burning zeal for God, for the Church, and for the salvation of souls — burning I say, literally, with fire and faggot — pass by those moral vices and wickednesses, without any chastisement, which are acknowledged by all men to be diametrically opposite to the profession of Christianity, and bend all its nerves either to the introducing of ceremonies, or to the establishment of opinions, which for the most part are about nice and intricate matters, that exceed the capacity of ordinary understandings? Which of the parties contending about these things is in the right, which of them is guilty of schism or heresy, whether those that domineer or those that suffer, will then at last be manifest when the causes of their separation comes to be judged of He, certainly, that follows Christ, embraces His doctrine, and bears His yoke, though he forsake both father and mother, separate from the public assemblies and ceremonies of his country, or whomsoever or whatsoever else he relinquishes, will not then be judged a heretic.
那么，为什么这种对上帝，对教会，对灵魂的拯救的燃烧的热情——我说的燃烧，毫不夸张的，用火与干柴——却无视那种公认违背基督教义的道德的邪恶，不加惩罚，反而，挖空心思的推行一些仪式，或者建立一些观念？而这些对于大多数人而言只是超出一般的理解能力的细微繁杂的事务。关于这些事情的争论各方，谁是正确的？谁在分裂宗教或犯异端的罪？是那些统治者，还是那些受害者？当上帝来审判他们分离的原因的时候最终都会真相大白的，当然的，一个跟从基督，信奉主的教义，负上主的轭，尽管离开父母，脱离国家的公共聚会和敬拜，或者不管他放弃什么人或什么东西，都不会被判为异端的。

WIND

forsake both father and mother:离弃父母（吴译）
==========================
我想说明一下，在洛克当时的英国，财产权制度也是早已建立起来的，所以forsake父母，并没有中国农村这种特有的悲凉文化的感觉，相反，离开父母意味着可能放弃财产继承。

牛倌

俺用谷歌翻译了一下。
Why, then, does this burning zeal for God, for the Church, and for the salvation of souls — burning I say, literally, with fire and faggot — pass by those moral vices and wickednesses, without any chastisement, which are acknowledged by all men to be diametrically opposite to the profession of Christianity, and bend all its nerves either to the introducing of ceremonies, or to the establishment of opinions, which for the most part are about nice and intricate matters, that exceed the capacity of ordinary understandings? Which of the parties contending about these things is in the right, which of them is guilty of schism or heresy, whether those that domineer or those that suffer, will then at last be manifest when the causes of their separation comes to be judged of He, certainly, that follows Christ, embraces His doctrine, and bears His yoke, though he forsake both father and mother, separate from the public assemblies and ceremonies of his country, or whomsoever or whatsoever else he relinquishes, will not then be judged a heretic.
那么，为什么这燃烧的热情为上帝，为教会，为拯救灵魂-燃烧我说，实际上，与消防和柴草-经过这些道德罪恶和wickednesses ，没有任何惩罚，这是大家公认的男子截然相反，以专业的基督教，弯曲其所有的神经要么介绍的仪式，或设立的意见，其中大部分是关于漂亮和错综复杂的问题，超出了普通的理解能力？这对立的各方对这些事是正确的，这是他们犯有分裂或异端，无论是那些称王称霸，或是那些受苦，然后将在去年的表现的原因时，他们的分离来判断的，他当然，这如下基督，接受他的理论，并承担他的枷锁，但他放弃这两个父亲和母亲分开的公众集会和仪式，他的国家，或任何人或任何其他人，他放弃，不会再作出判断异教徒。

俺准备重新翻译一下康德的三个批判。

WIND

俺用谷歌翻译了一下。
Why, then, does this burning zeal for God, for the Church, and for the salvation of souls — burning I say, literally, with fire and faggot — pass by those moral vices and wicke ...
俺准备重新翻译一下康德的三个批判。
牛倌 发表于 2009-7-10 23:05

恩，目标远大，希望早点看到你的帖子。

WIND

Now, though the divisions that are amongst sects should be allowed to be never so obstructive of the salvation of souls; yet, nevertheless, adultery, fornication, uncleanliness, lasciviousness, idolatry, and such-like things, cannot be denied to be works of the flesh, concerning which the apostle has expressly declared that "they who do them shall not inherit the kingdom of God."[5] Whosoever, therefore, is sincerely solicitous about the kingdom of God and thinks it his duty to endeavour the enlargement of it amongst men, ought to apply himself with no less care and industry to the rooting out of these immoralities than to the extirpation of sects. But if anyone do otherwise, and whilst he is cruel and implacable towards those that differ from him in opinion, he be indulgent to such iniquities and immoralities as are unbecoming the name of a Christian, let such a one talk never so much of the Church, he plainly demonstrates by his actions that it is another kingdom he aims at and not the advancement of the kingdom of God.
现在，虽然宗教派别的分立被认为对于灵魂的拯救已不再是那么大的障碍了；然而，通奸，乱伦，不洁，淫荡，偶像崇拜，以及诸如此类的不可否认的肉欲行为，确是使徒明确表达宣布过“行这些事的人，必定不能承受神的国”（《加拉太书》5：21）。所以，无论是谁，如果由衷的热心于上帝的王国并且将在人中扩大这个王国当作自己的责任，那么就应当更关心并努力根除这些不道德，而不是去消除分立。但是，如果有人更热心于消除分立，而残酷和不宽容的对待那些与他意见不同的人，那就是纵容这些邪恶与不道德而不配基督徒的名，纵使对教会所言不多，他的行为也清楚的表明了他的目标是另外一个王国不是上帝王国的发展。