59# irving
该医院注销是在2010年8月,接受“肖氏手术”失败的患者或家属到卫生部反映意见是2010年10月,卫生部信访处书面答复的落款日期是2010年11月15日,当事人收到该答复的日期是2011年1月。
本帖最后由 李大苗 于 2012-3-4 00:47 编辑
大苗这样的,内心基本上多年未见阳光了。
irving 发表于 2012-3-3 21:54
你这个人呀,辩术基本靠抹,对质基本靠躲,言说基本靠扯,回答基本靠默,证据基本靠裹,逻辑基本靠搓,概念基本靠挪。路数基本靠跛。

我在39楼问你的,你没给出一条直接答复。

而且,你,包括支持你这些说法的人,竟然察觉不出”瘫痪“病人的”腿瘸了“这样荒谬绝伦的说法!

就你的表述能力,真没法让人信服!·
你这个人呀,辩术基本靠抹,对质基本靠躲,言说基本靠扯,回答基本靠默,证据基本靠裹,逻辑基本靠搓,概念基本靠挪。路数基本靠跛。

我在39楼问你的,你没给出一条直接答复。

而且,你,包括支持你这些说法的人,竟然察觉不出”瘫痪“病人的”腿瘸了“这样荒谬绝伦的说法

就你的表述能力,真没法让人信服!·
李大苗 发表于 2012-3-4 00:46
在哪儿呢?
在哪儿呢?
马甲 发表于 2012-3-4 01:04
你连本楼的文字都不看,就跟着表态么?
64# 李大苗
28楼:
“但,迄今为止未发现有成功案例。方舟子和他的律师彭剑等人,先后和400多名患者取得了联系(很多农村患者无法联系上),未发现成功案例,并且,更令人痛心的是,40%的手术后瘸腿了,因为腿部神经的破坏。”

是不是这句?这里没说瘸腿的是术前瘫痪吧?
64# 李大苗
28楼:
“但,迄今为止未发现有成功案例。方舟子和他的律师彭剑等人,先后和400多名患者取得了联系(很多农村患者无法联系上),未发现成功案例,并且,更令人痛心的是,40%的手术后瘸腿了,因为腿部 ...
马甲 发表于 2012-3-4 01:24
那说明,你连什么是”肖式反射弧“都不知道,就积极参加表态。

若舌头比脑袋转得还要快,……
马甲同学,就本楼而言,你是不是一直跟着起哄,就是为着寻快活来着?
66# 李大苗

我不是从医的,但是百度“肖式反射弧”,看到这个疗法不仅针对截瘫患者,也被施用于非截瘫患者。

相关争议
  
肖传国
  1、肖传国2003年曾在国外专业杂志上发表过一篇论文,此次参与临床试验肖传国的共有15名截瘫病人,其中10人有效。成功之后,又于2000年在武汉应用于先天性脊膜膨出患者身上,用肖的话说,同样获得了成功。
  肖传国给南方周末记者提供了两名当年做肖氏手术的矿工,记者电话咨询时,其中一名史姓矿工表示有效,只是脚趾的功能受影响(该病人腰部有损伤,尚能行走)。另一名樊姓矿工则表示“不理想”。据他介绍,与其同批手术的其他四人也没啥效果。
  2、小善善曾是一场媒体发起的“爱心跨省救助”的主角。这位因患有先天性脊柱裂小便失禁的孩子,在媒体的帮助下,在郑州被实施了一种名为“肖氏反射弧”的手术。这个手术一度是全家人的希望所在。按照相关宣传,术后,“只需挠挠大腿内侧,就可以自主控制排尿,甩掉尿袋子”。以手术成功实施为标志的爱心大救助结束之后,小善善从公众视线中消失。全国各地不少看到报道的类似病人,则慕名去郑州做同样的手术。然而,令人尴尬的是,小善善的病并没有“治好”,母亲陈冠香说,他至今仍离不开尿布,而且手术后脚变形,走路“一拐一拐的”
  3、对于肖氏手术在美国开展的临床试验,也受到方舟子及支持者的质疑。该试验于2006年12月在美国Beaumont医院开始,有9名患者参与(与中国作为常规收费手术不同,在美国做这项研究有专门的基金,病人不需要付费)。按肖传国的说法,成功率比国内还高,将近90%(国内是80%-85%)。一篇关于此次试验的论文中也提到:9个病人全部表现出膀胱反射弧的收缩能力和膀胱的排空能力。不过,方舟子的支持者却找到一篇领导这项临床试验的医院泌科主任PETERS接受美国媒体St.Peersburg时报采访的报道,对试验给出了另外一种说法。报道引用PETERS的说法称,共有12个孩子(而不是9个)接受了手术,3个是脊髓损伤,9个是脊柱裂。3个脊髓损伤的孩子没有被手术改善。另外9个孩子中,7个有“明显的改善”。但是“9个脊柱裂的孩子中有8个腿脚变得不灵,手术前他们都能走路”。PETERS认为,手术的结果是“复杂的”,虽然事先考虑到难度,但仍然“令人失望”。他无法回答手术带来的风险与收获哪个更大。
马甲同学,就本楼而言,你是不是一直跟着起哄,就是为着寻快活来着?
李大苗 发表于 2012-3-4 01:40
莫问动机,莫问动机啊!
大苗这样的,内心基本上多年未见阳光了。
irving 发表于 2012-3-3 21:54
呵呵,对这么攻击大苗的,只有原话奉还:“像你这号的,...一边凉快去。"
博客:
http://blog.sina.com.cn/lidaxing
http://daxingli.blog.sohu.com/
马甲提供的资料还是扎实的,至少是下功夫收集了相关的资料的,让人信服。
呵呵,对这么攻击大苗的,只有原话奉还:“像你这号的,...一边凉快去。"
李大兴 发表于 2012-3-4 01:46
对网友还是心平气和的好。
我原本对肖传国的手术疗效不是很清楚,但你想,中国的院士有相当一部分是用金钱铺路打造出来的,肖传国在其单位也肯定是赫赫有名的,即使是准院士能量也不小,如果他的手术真有疗效,对于一个方舟子犯得着用凶器?对方舟子和他的律师动武,说明他已经是穷途末路了。再一点,中国的西医特别是外科手术,有可能世界首创?至少概率极低。肖传国的手术原理并不复杂,外国医生都是吃白饭的这都想不到?傻子都知道他有问题。看了马甲提供的资料,更坐实了我的看法。
我不反对网友提出不同的观点,但最好不要为辩论而辩论,总应该在辩论中增长见识,提高鉴定能力!
本帖最后由 irving 于 2012-3-4 08:43 编辑
你这个人呀,辩术基本靠抹,对质基本靠躲,言说基本靠扯,回答基本靠默,证据基本靠裹,逻辑基本靠搓,概念基本靠挪。路数基本靠跛。

我在39楼问你的,你没给出一条直接答复。

而且,你,包括支持你这些说法 ...
李大苗 发表于 2012-3-4 00:46
长眼了没?我的43楼写的是啥?

"瘸腿"的事,不懂你提出来,我解释给你,但你自大到直接嘲笑我表述能力。自己看帖,做点阅读理解。
本帖最后由 zoufeng_1234 于 2012-3-4 09:07 编辑

肖氏反射弧的事情,我的看法是:这个理论和设想是不错的,但是具体应用到手术上,肯定应该更慎重些。比如在国外,这类带实验性质的手术应该有专门的科研基金资助,然后在免费,知情,自愿的基础上征集志愿者来慢慢做,在国外一些新药也这么做的,志愿参加试验的人不仅不需要花钱,还能拿到一定的报酬。在“我们这儿”就是缺乏“免费,知情,自愿”这个实验过程,在利益驱动下直接就上马开始捞钱捞名。

所以肖传国搞研究没错,方舟子打假也没错,错的是我们这儿缺乏一个既鼓励研究者,又保护病人的一个制度。

其实我们这儿很多事情都是这样,搞到最后都是人斗来斗去,没有把注意力放在制度建设上,任凭悲剧一次一次发生,然后继续迎来人和人的下一次斗争。
对其理论上的探索性并不否定。但这才是一个起点。
现代药学研究过程,平均一个新药花费数亿美元,就是因为要淘汰大量的设想和中间研究成果。
对其理论上的探索性并不否定。但这才是一个起点。
现代药学研究过程,平均一个新药花费数亿美元,就是因为要淘汰大量的设想和中间研究成果。
irving 发表于 2012-3-4 09:05
所以还是急功近利的大环境造成的一个悲剧。

假设有一个大老板或者某个慈善基金被肖传国的理论和设想打动,愿意出一大笔钱资助,肖传国可以征集一些自愿参加手术实验的病人志愿者,每个志愿者不仅可以免费手术,还能拿到2万块报酬,如果手术失败,还有10万块的赔偿. 肖传国有了这些,就有可能慢慢积累经验和病例,说不定真的可以做出诺贝尔奖水平的东西,造福人类,即使不成功,也不会落到要雇凶报复的地步。

我相信肖传国不是一个专门的骗子和拿锤子砸人的疯子,方舟子也不是一个专门咬人的疯子,但是他们在现实中,确实可悲地成了一对互相砍杀的仇人。
在美国试验肖氏手术的只有peters,即便是他"不确定"的报告,也有造假。

grech: Peters其人:肖最重要合作者,曾拉人声援肖。因做了11例肖氏术出名, 其中11例失败,1例致残。在做美国第一个也是唯一一个肖氏术人体试验时,因人身安全问题被政府提前终止。虽获NIH资助, 但还未开始就被叫停。 3年结果报告时修改数据,隐瞒不利结果....http://t.cn/aODrpn
在美国试验肖氏手术的只有peters,即便是他"不确定"的报告,也有造假。

grech: Peters其人:肖最重要合作者,曾拉人声援肖。因做了11例肖氏术出名, 其中11例失败,1例致残。在做美国第一个也是唯一一个肖氏术人 ...
irving 发表于 2012-3-4 10:09
是啊,人家就会有政府出面叫停,不会造成更严重的后果,而我们这里一做就是几百上千例,要靠民间人士出面打假,最后演变成雇凶报复的刑事案件,没有人是赢家。
邹老师不妨看看 那个PDF.肖,方事情没有那么简单。两人结怨十多年了。

@素面虎 : 通过@微盘 分享文件"方舟子恶斗肖传国始末.pdf" http://t.cn/zO4r29a
关于 方肖,这个PDF讲的更多。有空自己去下  http://vdisk.weibo.com/s/2MeRC/1330178200
邹老师不妨看看 那个PDF.肖,方事情没有那么简单。两人结怨十多年了。

@素面虎 : 通过@微盘 分享文件"方舟子恶斗肖传国始末.pdf" http://t.cn/zO4r29a
关于 方肖,这个PDF讲的更多。有空自己去下  http://vdis ...
wolfzhang 发表于 2012-3-4 10:53
好家伙,前面这个就写了四百多页,后面“更多”的不知道有多长,实在吃不消看。

首先从文风上一副大批判的样子不太喜欢。

可悲的是一个肖氏反射手术弧成功率的问题双方都讲不清楚,大挖两人恩怨好像意义不大。
所以还是急功近利的大环境造成的一个悲剧。

假设有一个大老板或者某个慈善基金被肖传国的理论和设想打动,愿意出一大笔钱资助,肖传国可以征集一些自愿参加手术实验的病人志愿者,每个志愿者不仅可以免费手术, ...
zoufeng_1234 发表于 2012-3-4 09:33
邹峰这厮经常说话还挺有道理的。
美国健康总署2011年8月更新的公告

征集”肖式反射弧“实验志愿者的公告

征集人数:16;实验期起自2011年12月
终止日期:2015年4月;前期实验止于:2013年4月


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Nerve Rerouting Treatment for Neurogenic Bladder in Spina Bifida
This study is not yet open for participant recruitment.
Verified August 2011 by William Beaumont Hospitals

First Received on March 23, 2010.   Last Updated on August 19, 2011   History of Changes
Sponsor:         William Beaumont Hospitals
Collaborator:         National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (NIDDK)
Information provided by (Responsible Party):         William Beaumont Hospitals
ClinicalTrials.gov Identifier:         NCT01096459
  Purpose

The goal of this study is to evaluate a surgical procedure (operation) that reroutes lumbar to sacral nerves in the spinal column to improve the bladder's ability to empty properly in patients born with Spina Bifida.

Condition         Intervention
Spina Bifida
        Procedure: Nerve Rerouting

Study Type:         Interventional
Study Design:         Endpoint Classification: Safety/Efficacy Study
Intervention Model: Single Group Assignment
Masking: Open Label
Primary Purpose: Treatment
Official Title:         Safety and Efficacy of Nerve Rerouting for Treating Neurogenic Bladder in Spina Bifida

Resource links provided by NLM:

Genetics Home Reference related topics: spina bifida
MedlinePlus related topics: Spina Bifida
U.S. FDA Resources

Further study details as provided by William Beaumont Hospitals:

Primary Outcome Measures:

    Reproducible bladder contraction [ Time Frame: 6 to 24 months post procedure ] [ Designated as safety issue: Yes ]
    The primary aim of this study is reproducible bladder contraction of 15cm/H20 or more with scratching the cutaneous dermatome and no significant contraction with stimulation of the non-operated side.


Secondary Outcome Measures:

    Transfer of knowledge to other personnel to learn the procedure [ Time Frame: Two years ] [ Designated as safety issue: Yes ]

    Transfer of knowledge will be measured by comparing the following primary and secondary outcome measures across centers.
        Global response assessment for voiding, defecation, and QOL
        Percent voided/percent catheterized
        Presence of detrusor sphincter dysynergia
        Presence of urge incontinence
        Presence of stress incontinence
        Change in incontinence severity quantified by pad weights
        Need for intermittent catheterization
        Change in anal manometry
        Change in bowel function
        Change in quality of life
        Goal Achievement
        Adverse events


Estimated Enrollment:         16
Study Start Date:         December 2011
Estimated Study Completion Date:         April 2015
Estimated Primary Completion Date:         April 2013 (Final data collection date for primary outcome measure)
Intervention Details:

    Procedure: Nerve Rerouting
    All subjects will receive the unilateral nerve rerouting procedure.

Detailed Description:

Spina Bifida (a congenital defect of the spinal cord), causes nerve damage and a loss of sensation and muscle function below the waist resulting in bowel and bladder dysfunction. Patients cannot urinate or are constantly wet, and this continues throughout life causing major quality of life and health problems. Clean intermittent catheterization (draining urine from the bladder with a tube) is usually needed to empty the bladder properly. Medications are routinely required to alleviate high urinary tract pressures that can cause irreversible kidney damage, where dialysis or kidney transplant is the only way to sustain life.

A Chinese urologist developed a novel procedure to connect a functioning, healthy lumbar spinal nerve to the sacral nerve that controls the bladder. Hundreds of these procedures have been done in China. The end result is the creation of a new reflex where the bladder can be emptied by scratching or stimulating the skin (over the hip or thigh) supplied by that spinal nerve root. The Chinise physician had reported that of 92 SCI patients, 88% regained bladder control within one year after the nerve rerouting surgery and in 110 children with spina bifida, the reported success was 87% at one year. However, in China rigorous follow up is challenging, therefore much is still unknown about how the nerves regenerate post surgery, complications and results occurring in the first year in particular, and the potential role that central nervous system remodeling may play in achieving successful outcomes. Beaumont urologists were the first in the US to perform this surgery on children with spina bifida. Our preliminary data are very promising, and in 9 subjects at 12 months post procedure, 7/9 subjects could void either voluntarily or by stimulating the new reflex mechanism.

This current project aims to expand upon our pilot experience to conduct a larger and more rigorous study to establish the safety and effectiveness of the proposed somatic-autonomic reflex pathway procedure in gaining bladder and bowel control in patients with spina bifida. We will also collaborate with and train investigators at another site(s) to determine the training needed to achieve similar safety and effectiveness outcomes, and evaluate possible methods to stimulate the new reflex to improve bladder emptying. Achieving the aims outlined in this multicenter proposal will help firmly establish the procedure as safe and effective, and revolutionize the treatment of bladder and bowel dysfunction in patients with spina bifida in the US.
  Eligibility

Ages Eligible for Study:           5 Years and older
Genders Eligible for Study:           Both
Accepts Healthy Volunteers:           No
Criteria

Inclusion Criteria:

    Male and female patients age 5 and older with spinal dysraphism (ie. myelomeningocele , lipomyelomeningocele, myelocele, meningocele, occulta) with voiding dysfunction on a CIC program for bladder management for at least one year prior to screening.
    Atonic or hyperreflexic bladder documented by urodynamic testing during screening. .
    Documented history of no more than one tethered cord surgery/release in the past; must be > 2 years post tethered cord surgery/release
    Stable neurogenic bladder dysfunction of at least 1 year or more
    Normal renal function (cr<1.5 mg/dl or GFR >75)
    Ambulate independently with or without ankle-foot orthotics (AFOs).
    Catheterized volume must be at least 50% of total bladder capacity.

Exclusion Criteria:

    History of bladder cancer, augmentation, or radiation
    Anatomic outlet obstruction or urethral strictures
    History of untreated vesico-ureteric reflux grade 4 or higher documented on screening video UDT
    Hydronephrosis grade 3 or higher
    Presence of an ileal conduit or supra-pubic catheter drainage
    Subjects with an artificial bladder sphincter
    Subjects who have had a sling procedure
    Subjects who have had the mitrofanoff procedure
    Bladder botox injections within last 12 months
    Spina Bifida subjects who underwent intrauterine closure of their myelomeningocele
    Unable to ambulate independently with or without AFOs.
    Subject is pregnant
    Contraindications to general anesthesia or surgery
    Inability to complete follow up visits for 2 years
    Inability to complete (or have parent complete) self administered questionnaires
    Subject possesses any other characteristics that, per investigator's judgment, deems them unsuitable (eg increases risk, impairs data collection, etc) for the procedure/study.

  Contacts and Locations
Please refer to this study by its ClinicalTrials.gov identifier: NCT01096459

Locations
United States, Michigan
William Beaumont Hospital         Not yet recruiting
Royal Oak, Michigan, United States, 48073
Contact: Kim Killinger, RN     248-551-3565        
Principal Investigator: Kenneth Peters, MD            
Sponsors and Collaborators
William Beaumont Hospitals
National Institute of Diabetes and Digestive and Kidney Diseases (NIDDK)
Investigators
Principal Investigator:         Kenneth Peters, MD         William Beaumont Hospitals
  More Information

No publications provided

Responsible Party:         William Beaumont Hospitals
ClinicalTrials.gov Identifier:         NCT01096459     History of Changes
Other Study ID Numbers:         2010-029, RO1DK084034
Study First Received:         March 23, 2010
Last Updated:         August 19, 2011
Health Authority:         United States: Institutional Review Board

Keywords provided by William Beaumont Hospitals:
spina
bifida
restore
urinary
        function
nerve
reroute

Additional relevant MeSH terms:
Urinary Bladder, Neurogenic
Spinal Dysraphism
Neurologic Manifestations
Nervous System Diseases
Urinary Bladder Diseases
        Urologic Diseases
Signs and Symptoms
Neural Tube Defects
Nervous System Malformations
Congenital Abnormalities

ClinicalTrials.gov processed this record on March 01, 2012

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链接:http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01096459
上楼内容中有:
”Beaumont urologists were the first in the US to perform this surgery on children with spina bifida. Our preliminary data are very promising, and in 9 subjects at 12 months post procedure, 7/9 subjects could void either voluntarily or by stimulating the new reflex mechanism.“
前期的数据是非常鼓舞的,术后12个月时,9名对象中,7/9的病人既能够自主,或者也由新反射机能刺激排空(膀胱内尿液)。
上楼内容中有:
”Beaumont urologists were the first in the US to perform this surgery on children with spina bifida. Our preliminary data are very promising, and in 9 subjects at 12 months post proce ...
李大苗 发表于 2012-3-4 12:46
是啊,可是方舟子让他拿一例国内成功的病例都拿不出来,咋这会子又跑出个7个成功病例呢?
更多信息可见: http://blog.sina.com.cn/grecha
本帖最后由 zoufeng_1234 于 2012-3-4 19:16 编辑

A Chinese urologist developed a novel procedure to connect a functioning, healthy lumbar spinal nerve to the sacral nerve that controls the bladder. Hundreds of these procedures have been done in China. The end result is the creation of a new reflex where the bladder can be emptied by scratching or stimulating the skin (over the hip or thigh) supplied by that spinal nerve root. The Chinise physician had reported that of 92 SCI patients, 88% regained bladder control within one year after the nerve rerouting surgery and in 110 children with spina bifida, the reported success was 87% at one year. However, in China rigorous follow up is challenging, therefore much is still unknown about how the nerves regenerate post surgery, complications and results occurring in the first year in particular, and the potential role that central nervous system remodeling may play in achieving successful outcomes. Beaumont urologists were the first in the US to perform this surgery on children with spina bifida. Our preliminary data are very promising, and in 9 subjects at 12 months post procedure, 7/9 subjects could void either voluntarily or by stimulating the new reflex mechanism.

一位中国的泌尿科专家发明了一种....., 在中国已经完成了几百例病例。最终的效果是通过建立一个新的反射弧,可以让病人通过.....排空膀胱。中国外科医生已经报告了92个SCI病例,88%在神经重接后一年内重新获得了膀胱控制能力。110个有脊柱裂的儿童,治疗后一年的成功率是87%。但是,在中国,严格的术后跟踪比较困难,所以还有很多问题还未搞清楚:比如,关于术后神经重生的问题,术后第一年内的并发症和其他结果,中枢神经重新建模在成功治疗中的潜在角色等等。Beaumont 泌尿科医生是在美国首先在脊柱裂儿童中开展手术治疗的,我们的一些前期数据非常令人鼓舞, 9个实验病例中,12个月内有7个有自主排尿或者通过刺激新反射机制完成排尿。

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如果采信以上内容,那么方舟子的指控可能确实有点问题。美国人没有完全相信中国的数据,但是这个手术也不是方舟子所说的完全无效。

欧文兄愿意仔细探究一下其中的问题吗?你甚至可以发邮件到Beaumont去询问啊。
肖传国的这个手术,卫生部已经叫停,医院也给关门了,居然还有人给他背书,还辩论什么呢?
肖传国的这个手术,卫生部已经叫停,医院也给关门了,居然还有人给他背书,还辩论什么呢?
燕苗 发表于 2012-3-4 19:17
手术可以叫停,但是研究还是可以继续。

我注意到美国人把9个病例叫subjects, 而不是patients。 所以在美国,现在是属于花钱的研究实验阶段,而中国已经在临床赚钱了,这就是两个国家在制度上的差异。
方教主在国内的银行账号上不放钱,所以他可以乱喷粪,谁起诉他都没有用。我是无赖我怕谁,连法院的判决都拿我没辙。
我这么反暴力的人,有点明白肖传国为何要找人修理他了。